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GlassManMale Offline
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm Post # 1 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

After the September 11 attacks, commercial airline pilots were allowed to carry guns if they completed a federal-safety program. No longer would unarmed pilots be defenseless as remorseless hijackers seized control of aircraft and rammed them into buildings.

Now President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology.



Think I'm making this up??? :

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news....-that-l

Are they making it up??

Kelly, any insight??

:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

Come and get mine you effin' socialist


It's a fact of Life:

After Monday and Tuesday, even the Calendar says : WTF .......
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,1:25 pm Post # 2 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Here's another I stumbled across:

Iraqi men caught on Texas border :

http://www.krgv.com/mediace....atId=10

As one blogger wrote, "Maybe they ought to ease up on Joe Arpaio and help him control illegal crossings....or is that Un-American, as Nancy Pelosi says?  :banghead


It's a fact of Life:

After Monday and Tuesday, even the Calendar says : WTF .......
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,3:58 pm Post # 3 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
After the September 11 attacks, commercial airline pilots were allowed to carry guns if they completed a federal-safety program. No longer would unarmed pilots be defenseless as remorseless hijackers seized control of aircraft and rammed them into buildings.

Now President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology.



Think I'm making this up??? :

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news....-that-l

Are they making it up??

Kelly, any insight??

:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

Come and get mine you effin' socialist

Quote
The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.


They left out the little tidbit that the budget for the program (FFAO ?) is $25 million...  :say?  

You want to be outraged... be outraged that it cost us 25 million/year just to license commercial pilots to carry gun in the cockpit.  :pissed  WTF should it cost 25 million... contract it to the state of UT, the pilots pay their $50 and get a conceled carry permit.  Done, next problem...


Edited by Sleek-Jet on Mar. 20 2009,5:52 pm


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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,5:52 pm Post # 4 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (Sleek-Jet @ Mar. 20 2009,3:58 pm)
They left out the little tidbit that the budget for the armed pilot program is $25 million...  :say?  

That's Nothing Compared To What He's Given Away.....


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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,5:59 pm Post # 5 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

How about his special olympics comment.  I guess he's taking a little heat for it.




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,10:27 pm Post # 6 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
Come and get mine you effin' socialist

:good  :good  :good  :good  :guns  :guns  :guns  :guns




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,11:37 pm Post # 7 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
Are they making it up??

Kelly, any insight??

:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

Sadly they are not making it up...

They are siphoning off the $ to hire more inspectors to keep airline pilots "In Line".

Some facts:

Standardized Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) Program Costs

The U.S. airline industry comprises some 6,000 aircraft and 90,000 pilots.  These pilots – 98.6% of whom are college-educated and have an adverse incident rate orders of magnitude lower than other professions – fly 27,000 flights per day, safely transporting almost 700 million people each year!  Preventing new 9/11’s requires 50,000 to 60,000 armed pilots to guarantee 97% of airline flights have a robust deterrence and defense against terrorist attacks.  Other security programs have failed miserably and repeatedly.

To attain this participation level, the FFDO program must be modified to encourage pilots to volunteer and streamlined to train them.  Dangerous program attributes like requiring carrying firearms in steel locked containers across the country; onerous, months-long application bureaucracies; inadequate credentialing; hostile management; lack of international flight coverage and no officer support; have eviscerated volunteers and stunted the program.  Years after 9/11, only a very small percentage of pilots are armed.

Airline surveys suggest 50,000 professional pilots will volunteer to become FFDOs without compensation if the program is simply standardized with other law enforcement agencies’ operating protocols.  Because FFDOs are not compensated, FFDO program costs would be a fraction of those of programs like the air marshal program.  

This is what it would cost to protect almost 1 billion people a year from terrorist hijackers using FFDOs:

Initial costs - Training of new officers:  $164M

[$500/day training, board & admin cost per officer  x 7 days + $600 equipment cost (firearm, holster, etc.) = $4100 per officer x 40,000 new officers = $164M]

Annual recurring costs – $14M

[Semi Annual requalification:  $100 requalification cost x 2 training sessions per year x 50,000 officers = $10M
Attrition/industry expansion costs (1% per year):  $4100 x 500 officers = $2M
Program administration/support costs- $2M]

Ten year annualized Program cost = $29M per year, protects 97% of airline flights

As a comparison, the federal air marshal program costs $688M per year and protects only about 5% of airline flights.

The annualized cost of a standardized FFDO program would be only half a percent of the TSA’s annual budget. ***

There are about 12,000 FFDO's now, not the 40,000 the article states. The article here is a scenario to paint future costs of 97% coverage with FFDO's.  Actual cost may reflect the difference between the 12K and the 40K numbers...

How much do airplanes, families and tall buildings cost?

BTW EL AL the Israli national airline requires their pilots to be armed.


Edited by Fragile Magic on Mar. 21 2009,12:02 am




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,11:38 pm Post # 8 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Some "quick facts"

Quick Stats
 # Airline Flts per day: 28,000

Airborne Right Now: 4988

Flights Protected by 2
Armed Pilots: <3%

Flights Protected by
Air Marshals: (est.) 2%

At Risk Flights: 95%

Taxes Spent on Airline
Security: $12B

Airport Screening Failure
Rate against concealed
weapons: 75-95%

#Pilot Volunteers Refusing
to Fly Armed Due to Program
Problems: 50,000

Cost to Protect 2% of flights
with Air Marshals: $700M/year

Cost to Protect 100% of flights with Armed Pilots: $15 M/year


 
Airline Pilots Security Alliance - One Park Lane, Suite #412 - Boston, MA 02210 - 615-479-4140 - david_mackett@secure-skies.org




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,11:40 pm Post # 9 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Check this out...spread the word  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5FnuuJi-3Y




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,11:44 pm Post # 10 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

More:

There are more than 100,000 commercial airline pilots, and less than 2% of them are flying armed right now. That's equivalent to having the City of Las Vegas policed by 6 police officers. But the TSA feels the program is a success, saying 12,000 pilots will be trained and flying armed by the end of the fiscal year.
Pilot groups have worked with congress to propose new legislation that would force major changes in the FFDO program. The Cockpit Security Technical Corrections and Improvements Act is currently under consideration in the senate aviation subcommittee.


"Major Changes" Indeed!


Edited by Fragile Magic on Mar. 21 2009,12:03 am




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 20 2009,11:57 pm Post # 11 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Still more....

The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.

This looks like completely unnecessary harassment of the pilots. The 12,000 Federal Flight Deck Officers, the pilots who have been approved to carry guns, are reported to have the best behavior of any federal law enforcement agency. There are no cases where any of them has improperly brandished or used a gun. There are just a few cases where officers have improperly used their IDs.

Fewer than one percent of the officers have any administrative actions brought against them and, we are told, virtually all of those cases “are trumped up.”

Take a case against one flight officer who had visited the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles within the last few weeks. While there, the pilot noticed that federal law enforcement officers can, with the approval of a superior, obtain a license plate that cannot be traced, a key safety feature for law enforcement personnel. So the pilot asked if, as a member of the federal program, he was eligible. The DMV staffer checked and said “no.” The next day administrative actions were brought against the pilot for “misrepresenting himself.” These are the kinds of cases that President Obama wants to investigate.

Since Mr. Obama's election, pilots have told us that the approval process for letting pilots carry guns on planes slowed significantly. Last week the problem went from bad to worse. Federal Flight Deck Officers - the pilots who have been approved to carry guns - indicate that the approval process has stalled out.

Pilots cannot openly speak about the changing policies for fear of retaliation from the Transportation Security Administration. Pilots who act in any way that causes a “loss of confidence” in the armed pilot program risk criminal prosecution as well as their removal from the program. Despite these threats, pilots in the Federal Flight Deck Officers program have raised real concerns in multiple interviews.

Arming pilots after Sept. 11 was nothing new. Until the early 1960s, American commercial passenger pilots on any flight carrying U.S. mail were required to carry handguns. Indeed, U.S. pilots were still allowed to carry guns until as recently as 1987. There are no records that any of these pilots (either military or commercial) ever causing any significant problems.

Screening of airplane passengers is hardly perfect. While armed marshals are helpful, the program covers less than 3 percent of the flights out of Washington D.C.'s three airports and even fewer across the country. Sky marshals are costly and quit more often than other law-enforcement officers.

Armed pilots are a cost-effective backup layer of security. Terrorists can only enter the cockpit through one narrow entrance, and armed pilots have some time to prepare themselves as hijackers penetrate the strengthened cockpit doors. With pilots, we have people who are willing to take on the burden of protecting the planes for free. About 70 percent of the pilots at major American carriers have military backgrounds.




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 21 2009,12:17 am Post # 12 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Ok, After all that......

There is no official word that the program is ending. Just $ being diverted to hire more inspectors.

That's all I know.......for now.... :confused

.............................................. :plane  :guns




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 21 2009,6:02 am Post # 13 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

It hasn't even begun yet!... :angry  :pissed
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 21 2009,7:55 am Post # 14 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 21 2009,6:02 am)
Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

It hasn't even begun yet!... :angry  :pissed

Hell, he's only been in office 2 months, we've got a lot more coming. :puke


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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 21 2009,11:19 am Post # 15 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (WATERDOG @ Mar. 21 2009,7:55 am)
Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 21 2009,6:02 am)
Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

It hasn't even begun yet!... :angry  :pissed

Hell, he's only been in office 2 months, we've got a lot more coming. :puke

This is bad. Very bad.


"It seemed like a hell of an idea at the time".
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 21 2009,1:49 pm Post # 16 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (BigBoyToys @ Mar. 20 2009,11:40 pm)
Check this out...spread the word  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5FnuuJi-3Y

http://www.glennbeck.com/
http://www.the912project.com/

I'm spreading the word. And standing ready!!
:grouphug   :guns  :guns  :guns

Oh, disclamer: I and NOT a domestic terroist.   :peace


Edited by Hockey Family on Mar. 21 2009,1:54 pm


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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 21 2009,3:24 pm Post # 17 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (Hockey Family @ Mar. 21 2009,1:49 pm)
Quote (BigBoyToys @ Mar. 20 2009,11:40 pm)
Check this out...spread the word  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5FnuuJi-3Y

http://www.glennbeck.com/
http://www.the912project.com/

I'm spreading the word. And standing ready!!
:grouphug   :guns  :guns  :guns

Oh, disclamer: I and NOT a domestic terroist.   :peace

ditto :good  :good  :good




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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 22 2009,7:37 am Post # 18 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (DirtySquirty @ Mar. 21 2009,11:19 am)
Quote (WATERDOG @ Mar. 21 2009,7:55 am)
Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 21 2009,6:02 am)
Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

It hasn't even begun yet!... :angry  :pissed

Hell, he's only been in office 2 months, we've got a lot more coming. :puke

This is bad. Very bad.

Yes it is!.. :pissed
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 22 2009,11:02 am Post # 19 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (WATERDOG @ Mar. 21 2009,7:55 am)
Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 21 2009,6:02 am)
Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

It hasn't even begun yet!... :angry  :pissed

Hell, he's only been in office 2 months, we've got a lot more coming. :puke

Please Fasten You Seat Belt, And Return You Stewardess The The Full Upright Position....The Ride Has Started..... :eek


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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 22 2009,11:03 am Post # 20 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (DirtySquirty @ Mar. 21 2009,11:19 am)
Quote (WATERDOG @ Mar. 21 2009,7:55 am)
Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 21 2009,6:02 am)
Quote (GlassMan @ Mar. 20 2009,1:16 pm)
:pissed Where will it end? :pissed

It hasn't even begun yet!... :angry  :pissed

Hell, he's only been in office 2 months, we've got a lot more coming. :puke

This is bad. Very bad.

I Think That's An Understatement!!!


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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 22 2009,9:34 pm Post # 21 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply


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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 23 2009,6:07 am Post # 22 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (Carrera Elite @ Mar. 22 2009,11:02 am)
The Ride Has Started..... :eek

And it's going to be rough!.. :(
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 23 2009,7:28 am Post # 23 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 23 2009,6:07 am)
Quote (Carrera Elite @ Mar. 22 2009,11:02 am)
The Ride Has Started..... :eek

And it's going to be rough!.. :(

That's it....I'm moving full time to AZ, and organizing a Militia.  :eek  :D


"It seemed like a hell of an idea at the time".
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 23 2009,7:51 am Post # 24 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (DirtySquirty @ Mar. 23 2009,7:28 am)
Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 23 2009,6:07 am)
Quote (Carrera Elite @ Mar. 22 2009,11:02 am)
The Ride Has Started..... :eek

And it's going to be rough!.. :(

That's it....I'm moving full time to AZ, and organizing a Militia.  :eek  :D

Good luck!.. :laugh
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Post Icon Posted: Mar. 23 2009,12:01 pm Post # 25 see this member send this member a private message  quote this post in reply

Quote (DirtySquirty @ Mar. 23 2009,7:28 am)
Quote (GoFastRacer @ Mar. 23 2009,6:07 am)
Quote (Carrera Elite @ Mar. 22 2009,11:02 am)
The Ride Has Started..... :eek

And it's going to be rough!.. :(

That's it....I'm moving full time to AZ, and organizing a Militia.  :eek  :D

I Don't Think That It Would Be Much Work.....


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